Joseph Nathan Cohen

Department of Sociology, CUNY Queens College, New York, NY

Content Creation and the Law

This livestream was produced as part of the QPL Learning Series project.

Original Video Description

An introduction to the basics of legal concerns facing content creators, with guest Steve Vondran from Vondran Legal.

Transcription (Auto-Generated)

all right so we’re going to go live all right we are going live now just give it a second and i’m just gonna hold up my thing until i see that we’re on just give me a moment all right okay we are here welcome everybody to another installment of the queen’s podcast labs learning series for content creators my name is joseph cohen i’m an associate professor of sociology at queen’s college in the city university of new york and today i am very happy to have as a guest steven vondren from vondren legal mr vondren is a specialist in uh law that applies to content creators and is a great person to talk to you know legal concerns are probably the last thing content creators are thinking about when they start their enterprises they might see the law as a peripheral issue that they can safely ignore uh but anyone who’s ever gotten into serious trouble knows that this is a big mistake even the slightest misstep can cause you huge headaches maybe press you to take down your catalog and all sorts of things so there’s a lot to focus on and we’re grateful to have uh a knowledgeable guest so thank you mr vaughn for joining us today thank you joe i really appreciate your show and thanks for having me on looking forward to it today but before we begin uh just to introduce you to our audience you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and maybe uh your your legal work and your creative work because you’re also a creator yeah that’s great um yes i have a i’ve been a lawyer since 2004 so about 17 years now and um our firm practice is in uh what i like to think of as a niche area in a growing area of intellectual property law internet law and we handle quite a few infringement cases dealing with movie infringements photo infringements you name it architectural infringement jewelry infringement all kinds of things that you see on the internet counterfeit goods all kinds of things so we handle this well we usually represent the defendants or the person being charged so we have a lot of knowledge about how to how to try to stay out of trouble so today we’re going to talk about intellectual property law and libel law and two big concerns we will start with intellectual property law and copyright law for those of us who are listening who don’t know anything about this field what is intellectual property law what is copyright well uh so look at it this way you have the broad heading of intellectual property underneath that you’re gonna have copyrights which is one form of intellectual property you’re going to have patents those are your inventions copyright are your books and your music in anything creative that you put your podcasts or copyrightable your websites blogs copyrightable your patents are your inventions then you have trademarks that’s your name that’s the name queen’s podcast and you get a trademark on that and then you have what’s also known as trade secrets now trade secrets is like what i tell people is the kentucky fried chicken secret recipe okay you don’t go get a patent on that otherwise everyone would know about it you can’t copyright it uh so it is you can get a trademark on kfc but you need to have a trade secret to keep things secret so nobody knows the secret formula so that’s basically your four forms of intellectual property some people will throw in there a fifth uh a right of publicity using name in your image and your likeness which is kind of your talent and your what you’ve honed and crafted for yourself so you could call it that as well that’s not kind of somewhere in between so copyright happens when you create something original and then you have a right to it is that how it works yeah it’s uh that’s exactly how it works so the the phrase is anything that’s an original work of authorship which is fixed in a tangible medium of expression automatically gets copyright protection whether or not you go and actually register it with the united states copyright office so an original work of authorship fixed in a tangible medium of expression so that can be a photo that can be a painting uh that can be a movie that can be software code um that can be jewelry julie there’s a company that sues a lot of people for jewelry infringement okay that can be architectural plans so it’s such a wide range of what falls under the heading of copyright which is why i do it and which is why i really enjoy it i heard that you can just if you sketch a paper on a napkin then in a way that’s your own piece of art is is it really that simple you don’t have to register it with a government office or anything like that it’s exactly right and i sometimes will tell uh parents that i talk to on the phone i’ll say it’s your your child could draw a flower on a piece of paper uh that is copyrighted so it’s an automatic copyright protection uh now if you want to go and go the next step pay the 65 and have it registered and make sure nobody else can do that then you have that option what are some of the common misconceptions that creators have about copyright you hear all sorts of stuff from other podcasters or social media creators some of it sounds true some of it sounds unlikely in your career what have you heard are the big misconceptions that people have well i’ll tell you on the side of defending people let’s just take photo infringement for example um people will say well i found it on the internet i just thought you could just use it because it was on google or it said free image or nowadays we have the creative commons licenses and somebody may say it’s free to use and then but you have to make sure you give the link or the the attribution as we call it so there’s misconceptions i would say that that if you if you find it on the internet it’s free to use there’s also misconceptions in the area of fair use some people will say i do uh fair use reviews of documentary films as well and somebody will say well i only use 32nd of the song and i say well picture it if it was your 30 seconds of your song how would you be okay with that so it’s there’s misconceptions well what if i just use it for five seconds um and there’s a fair use balancing test and whatnot but um so those are some of the common ones that i think i run up to quite a bit can you explain fair use because i have heard podcasters say oh i can put any music at the beginning of my podcast as long as it’s less than 15 seconds or 20 seconds for fair use is that what fair use means well that is the concept of fair use and um you know what we do is fair use opinion letters because the filmmakers need to go and get insurance so they can distribute their films so we look at each clip it could be a sound clip music clip it could be a sound effect it could be a news clip but there’s no hard and fast rule that if you use three seconds for example that you’re good the way i tell people there’s so many sites out there nowadays where you can get some good music but everybody wants the one you know so you know you know they want the led zeppelin or something you got to be careful when you’re using clips from big companies you know universal and sony and all these big music companies you got to be careful there’s sites that make it so cheap and inexpensive i would just i use those cheap sites it’s the way to go you don’t have to worry about it but no it’s you need to keep those as short as possible and ideally fair use is commenting or criticizing not just borrowing somebody’s creative sounds and saying hey i really like that would be great in my podcast taking a video clip and commenting on it you see that a lot of tick tock nowadays where peop creators will do tick tock or they’ll be looking at a video and and you know commenting on the video so that’s how they get away with uh fair use on that so if you you can show copy written material on your medium if you’re showing it as part of making a point to the audience is that what you mean yeah that’s exactly what you’re looking to do comment criticism scholarly and research purposes and the the rule that i tell people is minimum necessary and of course i can’t give legal advice on the show but the minimum necessary take just what you need to show what you’re showing what you’re talking about bring it in bring it out okay so uh that’s the the best i can tell you to try to qualify for fair use show it comment on it get it out of there but of course always ask your own lawyer for the specifics of your there you go so can you describe some interesting copyright infringement cases that you’ve encountered or common ones that we can know about so we know to avoid them well like i said we do a lot of photo infringement so i’m not going to go too much into that movies there are quite a few lawsuits that we handle from a company called strike three holdings they uh sue for sharing their movies through bittorrent okay so a lot of uh people with technical skills they know how to it’s like the napster used to be and you can download software you can download and people do we also handle the software download cases but um somebody’s getting a hacked copy of microsoft or something so uh but you know so there’s i always tell people i never missed my opportunity to tell friends not to share movies on bittorrent through the file share and then the swarm and all that that can lead to literally some uh you know could cost you five ten twenty thousand dollars so that’s not uh something you wanna be involved in but um yeah other than that we have like i said we’ve had um infringement of architectural plans um we’ve been involved in jewelry cases where somebody says you’re selling my jewelry on etsy uh that’s my design on etsy um things like that and um just we’ve handled so many different types of cases and publicity cases where somebody’s using your image for an advertisement on their website or you know on their in a brochure right of publicity cases so just a lot of different things and unfortunately most of the things i do i have to keep confidential but oddly speaking those are uh the types of things that that we would get involved in so we have some interesting questions in the chat box here on zoom and if you’re watching on youtube feel free to use the chat box there uh here’s a question from jason tugal in an educational podcast how much latitude is there for including sound clips from film tv or music if the episode is discussing the clips oh that’s what i like i mean i think that’s a great question and that’s what exactly what we’re talking about when you’re commenting on the clip or using it if i if i’m going to use the clip i’m going to be commenting on it that i can promise you uh sometimes i tell my filmmakers uh you know you have this clip of a historical video of it talk about it say something about that clip if you’re using a music maybe transform it anything that is transformed into something new um one of the things that for example is like that obama poster that said hope on it somebody took a photo made it something new okay so they gave new meaning to the photo things like that now you’re transforming and creating a new piece of work but yeah the educational uses are going to get a little more leeway documentary films are going to get more leeway now things that are purely commercial products that’s when you have to be careful this is when the plaintiffs come out and say how much money did you make on that well you made five thousand dollars well that’s part of my stuff in there that’s where that’s where problems can arise but yeah yeah educational commentary and transformation ryan spirit race i suppose parody counts as fair use like tick-tock lip-sync videos and things like that yeah yeah parody is a very interesting area of the law we say it’s like shooting at the king you better not miss and so the point with parody is you have to be making fun of what you’re using so if you’re using a picture of kermit the frog you can’t use kermit the frog to comment on something else that would be considered satire does not get the protection you’re just using that to be funny if what you need to do is poke fun at kermit the frog you have to be poking fun at the original to get the parody protection that’s a distinction many people miss um but yes parody is is going to you know parody i remember i don’t know if you’re old enough to remember weird al yankovic he used to do all the songs and the the funny funny songs but he would always go to the artist first and ask can i can i use your song do you mind here’s the lyrics here’s what it’s it’s all in good fun and they would normally say yes but if they didn’t i understand that he said i i won’t do it but uh he still could have could have probably qualified for a parody um oh jason writes i once had a roommate who got sued for downloading music from napster i think he had to pay ten thousand dollars how what are the what are the penalties like for for these types of infringement yeah well that’s interesting the music industry was one of the first to get into these um cases and that was through the recording industry riaa and they came in and they were hitting people hard because they saw it as a big threat to their uh to their business model and you know they didn’t realize that they were going to have to sell songs for 99 cents one day you know so uh but yeah they went after people the penalties were really high at the beginning but the copyright law itself is in the one reason i’m engaged in copyright law is that the penalties can be as low as 750 for an infringement that could be one song you download you could owe 750 but if it’s a registered copyright then you got to pay their attorney fees too so that 750 photo on the low end plus the attorney fees now you got a two three thousand dollar case and if you have three or four or five songs now you have ten easy you know if you have the hundreds on a thousand songs you know you’re in big trouble but so um and there’s provisions where it could be as low as 200 if it’s an innocent infringement but it can go up as high as 150 000 per infringement that’s what’s so crazy about the law so for example if you if you go into a movie theater and you broadcast the movie and you’re broadcasting it live and you know that you could face 150 000 on something like that it’s a serious event now there you have the fbi warning symbol which usually uh wakes a lot of people up to prevent that but in many other places you know a lot of people don’t realize that things are copyrighted are there any other questions on copyright and intellectual property just before we turn to libel any any questions or comments for mr vondren all right all right so then let’s shift gears for a second and talk about libel what’s libel okay so let’s go back to our heading again okay we have heading called defamation i think most people know what defamation is it’s false statement of fact that injures somebody’s reputation okay now there’s two types of defamation we have slander which is talking uh oral slandering somebody in public you know you’re the worst person i’ve ever seen you’re a liar cheating a criminal that’s slander libel on the other side is written so you have defamation slander spoken libel is written now the way i always remember that is libel is like a label labels are things you stick them on things it’s a written that’s how i always remember that so i don’t get confused so on the internet of course we’re talking about libel which is written defamatory language false statements of facts about a person that’s publicated has to be publicated and which tends to cause one shame ridicule hatred to be shunned and avoided that kind of thing so um and we know what those things are you know a common one nowadays is people going on to yelp that attorney is a fraud and you say well now you’re talking about this in his profession be careful you better have it backed up okay so uh but that’s what libel is it’s written defamatory content and on the internet it stays around forever these days so that’s why people are so up in arms about it so in a podcast you’d worry about slander because it’s spoken is that what you mean well yeah that would be spoken um ultimately that is you know recorded and archived and everything else but but either way you look at it it’s a defamation and some people just sue for defamation uh in general just call it definition so wait let’s say i don’t like the rock’s new movie and i’m like the rock sucks can the rocks sue me for saying that he sucks publicly well that’s a very good uh again can’t give legal advice but you’re illegal right you’re alluding to is opinion okay uh to have a we all have a constitutional right to our opinions as long as they’re you know they’re realistic opinions and not just trying to but you if you have an opinion you you’re let’s say you’re a political columnist or a game reviewer yeah you have your right to review and you have your right to say something sucks and and people even bought um domain names that said you know walmart sucks let’s let’s say and so that’s they’re allowed to do that because it’s a form of commentary and criticism so we in in this area of law we don’t want to chill free speech is what we say we want a free open robust marketplace of ideas and so yes you get your opinion as long as it’s not a false statement of fact which tends to defame somebody so it’s when it’s not true that you start running into you can say anything you want so long as it’s true but it’s when it’s false that it’s a problem that’s correct and as long as yeah as long as it’s true now what i always say maybe a lot of people don’t do this but i’m a lawyer and when i think about posting things i asked myself can i back this up if somebody called me on it would and i’ve saved my notes i put it in a folder if anybody ever calls me on that says that’s not true um i say well i have the evidence here it is true uh but truth is a defense to defamation okay if you can show that it’s true um there is a thing in the law of most states uh i i would assume most states have now i’ll speak to california directly anti-slap laws is what we have now so if somebody is telling the truth and you’re saying oh that really upsets me i’m going to assume for defamation or slander libel whatever there is a motion you can file called an anti-slap motion it’s a lawsuit against strategic public participation and you can get your attorney fees if you can show i am just speaking my mind judge i am just giving my fair honest opinion i’m sorry this person doesn’t like it you can actually cut off that defamation lawsuit and pick up your own attorney fees so we have a counterbalance in the law to protect against that kind of thing are there any sort of i’m not asking about personal cases but maybe something that you know all lawyers learn about in law school like uh uh some type of defamation case that sort of illustrates you know how you can get into trouble and how judges would rule um is there i’m trying to think maybe that’s a terrible question actually because it’s just so broad but do you have any favorite defamation cases where you’re like oh i love this one it’s a classic well yes the classic case would be new york times versus sullivan and the reason why that’s a classic case is it shows and it stands for the proposition that public figures those who hold themselves out to the public they have they have a higher standard of proof if they want to prevail in a defamation case you say well why is that why why would uh for example donald trump went around suing everyone he’s got a higher standard of proof because he’s a public official public figure they have to prove what’s called actual malice in order to prevail and that is that the author of the article had knowledge of the falsity and reckless we had a reckless disregard of the truth so it’s a high standard um and that’s because we want again robust debate on public figures uh people who thrust themselves into debates public officials and so again this is all to help the marketplace of ideas and communication so you have sorry what that was my favorite case so you have to be extra careful when you’re publicly speaking about not famous people or not public figures yes against what we would just call a private uh individual as opposed to a public figure yes you would have a lower standard of proof um like i said all you need to show it’s a false statement of fact tends ninja the reputation published to a third party um and if they’re a public figure you need to add on the actual malice so you have one extra thing that you have to prove as the plaintiff and i i gathered from your what you said earlier that the best defense for libel is to have your notes and make sure that when you say something about someone you had a reason to believe it was true yeah and that’s sort of how you defend yourself against that absolutely yeah and there’s also um like media apparels insurance and things you can buy just just in case um some people like to get the uh meetings called media apparels will protect you for inadvertent false statements that you know when you as a podcaster you’re talking 24 7 and if you’re not mis if you’re missing an edit you get the chance to edit it i assume but not um but in case you say something on a live stream and you can’t you go man i can’t take that back you know you can get church to cover i’m writing that down that that’s a great piece of information no charge no thank you very much are there any questions on defamation speech or any comments in the chat box or would you like to do it uh oh uh barbara says so what’s the definition of a public figure like who counts as a public figure well i would say uh i don’t know if there’s an exact precise definition but let’s put it this way anybody you would find in a newspaper anybody you would find in a magazine anybody that thrust themselves into a public controversy now that could be maybe there’s a lost child they can’t find the child and the mom comes forth and she’s running all remember who was the one her daughter in aruba um natalie holloway yeah nelly holloway she came out and she was all over the place now i would say she has thrust herself into the controversy so even though she’s a private figure she’s now sort of elevated herself to a public figure opening up more comments criticism what so what no what not so but um but yeah so i wouldn’t say there’s a hard and fast rule but magazines and newspapers you see them on tv sports stars actors actresses people you would know um and again these are the things lawyers fight about we go to court and we yes she is no she’s not yes she is we got this case law we got that case law so those are the things we wrangle about in court yeah that’s one thing i i i didn’t realize about uh the legal system until i got older and came into contact with it there’s not as many hard definitions of things it comes down to what a judge or a jury will say won’t it like you can’t really it’s a guess is that true well it can be the cases that actually go to court when i say court go to trial those are the ones we’re usually we’re talking splitting hairs um factual hairs you know legal hairs we’re really trying to figure something out there may not be a lot of precedent on it and so those are the ones that you see actually going to trial other than that you know 90 something percent of all civil cases settle and usually we have precedent usually we can figure out a fair honest definition of what something means um but you know they say if you put 10 lawyers in a room and ask them you know what’s definition of battery you’re going to get 10 different answers you guys are like us very frustrating as professors our professors are professors public figures if they publish and if they’re in the media or is how does that argument often that’s a fair question now there’s um things known as limited public figures it gets into if you ever read the jury instructions for defamation you can pull them up in california there’s about there’s about this many different definitions depending if you’re this for this if you’re this or this so um but yeah i would say that on a campus a professor might be very well known and um you know in a type of position where that might qualify so yeah that may be something you have to look up your local case law a comment from ryan sperry seems like there’s a fine line for opinions can’t i just have an opinion that someone’s a fraud or engage in conspiracy theories or things like that yeah you can but again this is where you have to be careful you have to be careful who you’re picking on how you’re doing it now if you say um you know i bought i bought something on amazon and or let’s say i bought something on ebay and in my opinion uh this seller is a fraud okay so if you if you couch it like that you’re in a much better situation yes you do have an opinion you can believe someone’s a fraud now if you’re saying that the seller’s a power seller and says uh you know this isn’t cool and i got lots of money so maybe i want to see if we can test the waters on this and send them a letter send them a take down letter make them take it down or retract it you know maybe i’ll file a lawsuit i don’t know so you always want to use common sense court is not the place you want to spend your time you want your time creating building your channels that’s where you want to spend your time so be very careful about that but yes certainly you have a right to your opinion if you find yourself in trouble you get a lawyer’s letter in the email or something what should you do well i say no i’m not biased here or anything but i think you should call a lawyer most lawyers will give you a free consultation um the good ones um but um you know find out where you stand where you’re at i see a lot of cases especially in photo infringement somebody will get a letter from this company from canada they’ll look at it it seems a little scammy or they’re scared when they just chuck at the wayside and then you know two weeks later there now they have a law firm now this letter looks real now the fees have gone up because they had to spend it to so i always say when you first get signed of a legal trouble a subpoena anything like that just call your friendly neighborhood lawyer and make sure they’re in your practice area and ask for a free consultation they will usually give it to you if you have to pay a fee a small fee would not hurt you either but find out where you stand before you take your next act don’t call people don’t start telling everyone everything now you’ve got witnesses that you’re creating so just take it easy call your friend and get and see where you stand don’t don’t emote your legal problems on social media or things like that i suppose yeah oh i’m not saying there might not come a time where we call we call it the law of the press there is a time when you would use the press to benefit you but um but yeah it’s uh you know these things once they’re posted you got potential for libel and just it’s hard to get these things down they get archived forever in the wayback machine and it’s just think before you post all right are there any other questions for mr vondren do you want to give some information about uh oh ryan uh ryan sperry has a question go ahead right yeah i just have one question about uh i was gonna i was typing it now was gonna end but um how about the role of the fcc is there any role for them in any of this with like broadcast media or streaming do they ever get involved in protecting people’s rights to say things or do you know any cases where they’ve gotten involved in maybe suing or protecting or do they just stay out of it until they need to well fcc federal communications commission and the ftc the federal trade commission they’re really the two watchdogs that are looking for things that are wrong pirate radio um false and deceptive advertising false and deceptive statements for the ftc but they’re usually looking for bigger companies as as opposed to um small podcasters i’m not you know never say never but they’re looking for big companies that are making major violations that they can make a public thing about so that they educate everybody else and usually there’s enforcement actions and there’s fines involved in those kinds of things but yeah they’re the they’re the watchdogs of the fcc the media the airways drone or faas with the drones um and ftc just like i said just consumer uh consumer protection uh things like that but yeah they’re out but you uh in my experience usually the the bigger company so i don’t i don’t deal much with them but uh they’re out there if you’re if you’re a bigger player doing something wrong a question on the chat i’m curious about music sampling if a musician uses a sample to make something new like warhol uh why isn’t it fair use well there’s a lot of different case law on that right now and federal courts are broken up into different districts and circuits and so there’s 11 circuits so you got to check your jurisdiction very closely not only where you live but where the artist lives and make sure because some courts in california are now saying sorry you can’t do that um i don’t care if it’s real short you know the artist made it and you’re using it it’s an you’re using this ingredient in your song and other jurisdictions may be a little more relaxed on the whole thing but you can understand ninth circuit where i practice we got entertainment we got technology companies we got radio tv we got it all so they’re very protective of the artists and creators in the west side of the united states but um yeah i mean there may be somebody but i that’s one thing i won’t say yeah just go for it you’ll be fine i i get the sense from your answers that the law is a lot like science in that people from the outside think all the rules are super clear and from the inside you’re like i don’t know it’s what everybody agrees to or not and you can’t tell is that really how it works it’s like the law isn’t extremely extremely clear with clear lines you sort of have to know the rules and hope that a judge or a jury would side with you is that how it works yeah that is i mean i guess a lot of it is the gray area i remember when i first went to law school they said um it would hammer this the first year they would say um you guys this is not like medical school there’s not a right answer there’s not a right and a wrong it’s not the hemoglobin or or the white blood cells what it’s there’s no right answers there’s arguments there’s law words all have multiple definitions put in one sentence you have multiple words with multiple definitions and then put in a paragraph put in the case law you have over here put in the case law you have over here oh by the way how does the judge feel about these kinds of things as the judge ruled on this before so it’s argument when you hear a lawyer say i’m going to argue we’re going to argue we’re going to we’re arguing not not to be mean but we’re making legal arguments based on the fact and based on the law and we’re trying to persuade the judge that we’re right and so yes there’s quite a bit of uh room for creativity in in the practice of law even though it seems like you know just you know but uh yeah it’s a great question theo has a question how’s disney able to keep renewing mickey mouse it’s been like 75 years he writes well you have good lobbyists that pay a lot of money and when they need something done and in that case uh mickey mouse i forget maybe 10 15 years ago it was coming up for uh to go into the public domain of course you can’t have that too much merchandise sales so um so they lobby congress and they get an extension i think it was the i think it was the beverly song act i can’t remember but yeah they got an extension on it and that’s how you do it but i guess the answer is be a major media company that can influence congress friends on a hill somewhere that’s right jason tugal writes it sounds like the gray areas are in your favor if you have a lot of money and good lawyers well he’s getting to a good point um there’s an old saying that we used to have or at least not me but uh i had was good friends with a criminal lawyer and he said how much justice can you afford and uh innocent or guilty or innocent till proven broke yeah unfortunately yes there is an element that if you have a lot of money you can push people around in court but the other side is we our law understands that we do have provisions and ways for you to recover your attorney fees in certain circumstances but yes i in litigation i would much rather have a big deep pocket than uh you know a couple hundred dollars for sure colby corley writes if someone is an artist do you know what the process is of copyrighting your own work your own artwork so yeah yeah yeah there’s a copyright office it’s uh now um it’s and um you just go there you you register for an account it’s very simple to do i don’t believe there’s a charge um you put the details of your your art in there you have gonna upload a sample at the end and you’re going to say who the artist is who has the rights who who do you talk to if somebody wants to license it from you and you pay a 65 fee it’s pretty simple barbara asks what percentage of cases are settled out of court how often how often do things get to court is it rare or well a lot of things get to court um so so lawsuits flying is very common but lawsuits actually going to trial by jury um you know if i had to guess i would say the old rule of thumb is about 98 99 percent of cases settle before there’s a trial quite a bit all right well i think we’re ending the amount of time that you very generously gave to us thank you i just wanted to before we go uh if uh people want to uh know about your firm you also have a podcast that i i’ve listened to the at the vondren legal hour do you still are you still podcasting yeah i do well i do that from time to time that’s more of a search engine uh marketing thing for me to build out my website but um the site i like and the site i put my time into is attorney steve that takes you to my youtube channel and i’ve got 32 000 getting close to 33 000 subscribers so if any of y’all want to go hit that button that would be great smash that like and subscribe let’s bash it and uh give me a thumbs up thumbs down i don’t care just but yeah no that’s my uh that’s my side and you’ll i have over about 650 videos so lots of legal topics lots of media related ip related copyright related all kinds of trademarks a lot of stuff on there i even have one how to do a trademark without a lawyer um so yeah check those out um lots of good stuff there i i i have to i i recommend them i’ve learned a lot from you i learned from your podcast emotion a little bit of a podcast five and checked out your youtube but i will but uh thank you for putting out those resources and being generous you know with the public uh yeah it’s really great oh uh one more time the website uh we’re being asked uh what’s the website again i’ll put it in the chat box yeah it’s attorney steve com and i’ll put that in the in the uh chat boxes that was steven vondren from vondren legal an intellectual property attorney in california who specializes in a lot of issues uh related to content creators and a content creator himself thank you very much mr vondra for joining us today all the top all right i’m going to end the live stream all right we’ll just give it 10